The Core 2 Quad Q8400: Intel's $183 Phenom II 940 Competitor
by Anand Lal Shimpi on May 7, 2009 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- CPUs
Phenom II Earns a Financially Troubled AMD Less per Chip than Core 2 Quad
The global economy isn’t exactly strong right now. People are still buying, just not nearly as much as before when it felt like money grew on trees. Financially, all companies have been hurt, but AMD has much bigger issues. The table below shows net income in millions of US dollars before taxes for AMD and Intel over the past four quarters:
| Net Income Before Taxes | Q1 2009 | Q4 2008 | Q3 2008 | Q2 2008 |
| AMD | -$298 Million | -$1,358 Million | $22 Million | -$682 Million |
| Intel | $629 Million | $369 Million | $2,833 Million | $2,313 Million |
Yeah. Ouch. Granted Intel going from ~$2.8B of income in a quarter down to under $400M must’ve hurt, but AMD has lost over $2.3B in the past four quarters. The company isn’t profitable and unfortunately is stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to fixing that.
The financial issues extend beyond simple CPU sales but I must point out the obvious issue with AMD’s current strategy. We know that the Phenom II is competitive, but look at what it’s competing against:
| Processor | L1 Cache | L2 Cache | L3 Cache | Total Cache (4-core) | Transistor Count | Die Size |
| AMD Phenom II | 128K per core | 512KB per core | 6MB | 8.5MB | 758M | 258mm2 |
| Intel Core 2 Quad Q9x50 | 64KB per core | 12MB | N/A | 12.25MB | 820M | 214mm2 |
| Intel Core 2 Quad Q9x00 | 64KB per core | 6MB | N/A | 6.25MB | 456M | 164mm2 |
| Intel Core 2 Quad Q8xxx | 64KB per core | 4MB | N/A | 4.25MB | 456M | 164mm2 |
Every single Phenom II uses a single 258 mm2 45nm die, that’s nearly Nehalem-sized. The problem is that the Phenom II parts generally compete against Intel’s Core 2 Quad Q9x00 and Q8xxx series, both of which have a total die size of 164mm2. AMD’s Phenom II die is 57% larger.
AMD and Intel both manufacture on 300mm wafers, but Intel can get nearly 60% more CPUs for each wafer than AMD can thanks to its die size advantage. That translates into more revenue per wafer and a significant profit advantage for Intel.
AMD’s Phenom II is very competitive, but the strategy does not have much long term staying power. AMD needs to introduce smaller die versions of its CPUs soon.
The deeper ramifications of AMD’s current situation are troubling. I’m not sure what impact all of this is having on the development of AMD’s next-generation architectures, but I suspect that it can’t be good.
The Test
| Motherboard: | Intel DX48BT2 (Intel X48) MSI DKA790GX Platinum (AMD 790GX) |
| Chipset: | Intel X48 AMD 790GX |
| Chipset Drivers: | Intel 9.1.1.1010 (Intel) AMD Catalyst 8.12 |
| Hard Disk: | Intel X25-M SSD (80GB) |
| Memory: | G.Skill DDR2-800 2 x 2GB (4-4-4-12) G.Skill DDR2-1066 2 x 2GB (5-5-5-15) Qimonda DDR3-1066 4 x 1GB (7-7-7-20) |
| Video Card: | eVGA GeForce GTX 280 |
| Video Drivers: | NVIDIA ForceWare 180.43 (Vista64) NVIDIA ForceWare 178.24 (Vista32) |
| Desktop Resolution: | 1920 x 1200 |
| OS: | Windows Vista Ultimate 32-bit (for SYSMark) Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit |
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eXistenZ - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
Obviously, AMD is no good in Far Cry 2 game. K8, K10, K10.5, al these architectures were always slower than intel's competitors. And it is really crappy game, so i don't see any reason why are you testing right on this one. I think, more fair testing is with Crysis or CPU-eaters = RTS...Goty - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
Anand seems to be buying into all the FUD about AMD lately. Sure, AMD's not doing so hot right now, but they're not in much worse a position than they were in the middle of the P4 era (probably about the same position, all told).Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, May 8, 2009 - link
I'm not sure I would call it FUD. AMD lost $2.36B before taxes in the last four quarters combined. Their chief competitor made $6.13B. Now Intel has always made more than AMD, but the issue now is that AMD is losing a considerable amount every quarter. That can only continue for so long.What I'm more worried about is the impact this is having on the next-generation cores that AMD is developing. While engineering budgets are the last things to go, if you're losing a few hundred million a quarter everyone from marketing to engineering gets hurt.
Ignoring the problem isn't going to make it go away, I felt that it would be important to at least bring some of this stuff to the table so we can at least be thinking about it.
Take care,
Anand
microAmp - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
Actually, it's worse, they are running out of cash.ssj4Gogeta - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
"It's the beauty of Moore's Law: with fewer transistors crammed into a much smaller area, we're able to see the same performance."Shouldn't it be "MORE transistors crammed into a much smaller area"?
:)
hooflung - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
I am another that buys based on the ability of Virtualization via virt functionality. I got a P2 940 because I wanted the ability to have 4 cores to split up to VM's running Hyper-V, Xen and KVM. I just can't do that on new intel chips that fall in the price range right now.My C2D is still rocking a venerable 1ghz OC on a e4300 and P35 chipset. For me to install an OS to do development as the top level is just wasting wattages at my home.
snakeoil - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
''Phenom II Earns a Financially Troubled AMD Less per Chip than Core 2 Quad''well you are saying that amd make less money because phenom 2 has a little more area,but in your happy calculations you forgot that bad quad core dies are used to make tricores and soon dual cores phenoms.
harvesting.
what are you doing little annand
crimson117 - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
One wafer costs a fixed amount to make; let's say $200.Let's say AMD can get 10 CPUs made from each wafer, while intel can get 20 smaller CPUs from each wafer. They each sell their chips for $180.
AMD puts $200/10 = $20 worth of wafer into each $180 CPU.
Intel only has to put in $200/20 = $10 worth of wafer into each $180 CPU.
So assuming all other things are equal, Intel makes $5 more on each CPU sale than AMD.
crimson117 - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
*clicks Edit button*So assuming all other things are equal, Intel makes $10 more on each CPU sale than AMD.
mkruer - Thursday, May 7, 2009 - link
You are also forgetting that AMD and Intel use two different lithphogathy technologies to AMD uses submersion and Intel uses double pattering. The Submersion takes slightly longer then a single pattering, and yeild fewer defects. This meas that AMD should be able to preduce a high volume of chips per platter then Intel. Adding to the confusion, is that neiter intel nor AMD releases what there yeilds are and as such, too comepare based upon die size alone is folly. People can crunch the numbers anyway they want, but in the end it should be a, for more or less, wash.